WAR wins in California

Brian Holtz is reporting the following from the California Libertarian Party convention:

The LPCA Convention today held an open instant-runoff straw poll after hearing Burns, Kubby, Jingozian, Phillies and Root debate. The counts of first-preference results were:

  • 20 Wayne Root

  • 12 Steve Kubby

  • 12 Ron Paul

  • 8 George Phillies

  • 3 Jim Burns

  • 2 Christine Smith

  • 2 Mary Ruwart

  • 2 Karen Kwiatkowski

  • 1 Michael Jingozian

  • 1 NOTA

After the IRV process, the results were

  • 31 Root

  • 21 Kubby

All of the anonymous ballots will be made public.

I’m expecting, based on these results, that Root handled himself well in debate. I’ve noted that Root seems to have made some substantial shifts in foreign policy recently. I’m wondering if this is now starting to pay off for him.

It’s a bit surprising that Mike Jingozian scored as low as he did. He was clearly the person people were watching last week in Las Vegas. Neither Mary Ruwart nor Karen Kwiatkowski are declared candidates, so I’m wondering why they were allowed on the unofficial “ballot”—but I’m much more curious about where those votes might have gone.

I’m also noting that it seems that the California convention must have had an incredibly low turnout as compared to previous years.

91 Responses to “WAR wins in California”

  1. Brian Holtz Says:

    There was no official ballot, so people could list whomever they wanted. Root indeed underscored his “conversion” on foreign policy.

    This year’s San Diego convention had a peak of about 83 delegates, compared to 97 last year in the SF Bay Area and 91 on the 2006 cruise convention that embarked from LA.

  2. Stephen Gordon Says:

    The last CA convention I was at was in 2004, and I recall a lot more people than any of the more recent ones.

  3. Eric Dondero Says:

    This race is starting to look a bit predictable. It’s Wayne Root, Steve Kubby and George Phillies as the Top Three, as most of us have been saying for months.

    I could see this thing ending up with some sort of team effort, say Root and Phillies.

    Thankfully, if Root gets it, disgruntled Republicans who can’t vote for McCain will have a choice in November.

  4. Eric Dondero Says:

    Stephen, you are correct. Those are some awfully low numbers all around. Are you saying there was only 80 or so people at the convention?

    The LPC usually has conventions of 300 to 400.

  5. BillTx Says:

    What, did Daniel Impewacko not get any votes?

  6. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Holtz’s list of winners is incomplete.

    “Gibby the cat” also got 1 vote—I wonder why Brian left this out?—perhaps because it harms the LP’s “serious” image?

    FWIW, I and Bob Weber were the Karen Kwiatkowski votes.

    I also found out who voted for “Gibby the cat.”

    Scott Lieberman brought Wayne Allyn Root over the me the night before. Root apparently knew who I was. He was very friendly to me (I admit, he comes across as personable and energetic).

    Root kept insisting that he and I are a lot closer in our views than I realize. He said if I got to know him better, I’d find much to like about him. He also told me he’s moved far closer to the non-interventionist position that he was last year.

    Root also made much of his newfound non-intervensionist/anti-foreign aid views during the debate. (Although his BIG talking point was that he was a “small businessman,” and thus knew how to attract their votes.)

    Jingozian also talked up being a successful businessman, though that obviously didn’t do him much good.

    Several people I spoke to wondered about Root’s non-interventionist sincerity, but it’s obvious he won a few people over.

    I’d like to be certain of Root’s sincerity (I admit, I can’t look into a man’s heart, though I still wish he’d step aside and demonstrate his sincerity with a few years of activism before running for our top spot.)

    I’ll blog more details about the debate over the next few days; plus I have a few articles to write about it.

    Brian Holtz, let’s not toss “Gibby the cat’s” vote down the Stalnist memory hole. Gibby earned a vote, and deserves to have it recorded.

    Consider this: Gibby didn’t participate in the debates, didn’t announce—and yet, even so, Gibby pulled more votes than did Christine Smith!

  7. Robert Milnes Says:

    Losers.

  8. Mike Says:

    Robert Milnes: “Losers.”

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  9. Brian Holtz Says:

    Thomas, Smith in fact got double the votes of Gibby the Cat. I didn’t list Gibby because that s/he is ineligible to be a choice in Denver. Does your comment here mean you intend the document Gibby’s result in our state party newspaper (which you edit)?

  10. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Brian, you say this year’s convention had “about 83” delegates.

    Yesterday’s minutes (which I got from Beau Cain today) says there were 73 registered delegates attending when the convention was called to order yesterday.

    73, not 83.

    I don’t know if any delegates arrived later on.

    Especially surprising was that few San Diego LP members came. One Excom member commented on this to me, saying that the San Diego LP is in a poor state.

    Robert Milnes, sorry, but “Gibby the cat” pulled more votes than you did.

    At this point, I think that any candidates who polled less than “Gibby the cat” drop out of the race.

    Eric Dondero, Root did indeed say he was planning to go after Republican voters who were dissatisfied with McCain. Root said that the left loved Obama, and so it was pointless for the LP to target the left voters.

    Kubby then replied that he was not going “to write off the left.” Kubby said he found an enthusiastic reception from many young leftists whenever he spoke about his victories for medical marijuana.

    The irony is that, should Root be the LP candidate, he’d make it more likely that Obama would win. Likewise, Kubby would make a McCain victory more likely.

  11. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    I stand corrected on Smith.

    Yes, of course I plan to document the election results as polled. Shouldn’t the membership (those who couldn’t make the convention) know what went down?

    I assume that Gibby was a protest vote, a message of disgust with the entire field. That deserves being noted, no?

    IAE, it should be up to the reader/member to determine what weight or interpretation to give to the final results.

  12. Dave Williams Says:

    “Thankfully, if Root gets it, disgruntled Republicans who can’t vote for McCain will have a choice in November.”

    Eric, I concur…I’m one of them.

  13. Hugh Jass Says:

    I know Root’s foreign policy change is predictable, but I think he would be a good LP nominee. In a year where the conservative base is dissatistfied with McCain, the LP should take advantage of conservative discontent and nominate someone who can get their votes. Kubby and Phillies strike me as too left-libertarian for my tastes.

    Also, given that Gibby the cat got more votes than they did, I am waiting for the withdrawal of Jingozian, Jackson, Imperato, Milnes, Williams, Hollist, Link, Hess, and Finan. I think its clear this nomination is between Root and Kubby, with Phillies being a longshot.

  14. Wes Benedict Says:

    Okay, am I the only one that googled gibby the cat?

    Here’s what I found featuring Brian Holtz:

    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=2189365

  15. Dave Williams Says:

    Wes, twisted…very twisted…LOL

  16. exlp Says:

    Jingozian was awful and lost people when he said that while he supports free trade he also supports “fair trade”. Phillies came out of the closet as a believe in man-made global warming in addition to his stand on immigration without a permit. There was his bizarre $5000 tax credit to children “not to the parents” because the parents are too poor! (If the parents are too poor to pay taxes and wouldn’t get a tax credit then how would the child have enough income to gain the tax credit—he was very unclear on that). Phillies is just an atrocious speaker and his whiny voice gets very irritating.

    Root was very loud, very aggressive and clearly in love with himself telling anyone who would listen how he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He claimed he changed his mind on foreign policy—how convenient! He was also rather conservative and not particularly great on immigration either. Kubby who is a mediocre speaker was the most consistently libertarian among a group of closet conservatives —except Jim Burns who really never counts does he.

    I think if Mary Ruwart would win she’d do well.

    Also this was not quite an instant run off. It was announced that people could write in any name they wanted and rank candidates if they wanted but there was some confusion as to what this meant. No ballot was provided and it had no impact on anything. They did claim there were 80 some delegates and that Root came in first with 21 votes showed, I think, that delegates were just not happy with this bunch of candidates. Not that I blame them. It was a rather poor selection of candidates. Kubby is the most libertarian but not a great candidate in the election. I wouldn’t vote for Phillies and Root and Jingozian are Republicans in libertarian drag.

  17. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Well, Jingozian actually equaled Gibby’s vote total.

    Actually, I felt sorry for Jingozian, as he really tried. He and Phillies were the only candidates that did any extensive campaigning throughout the convention (at least, from what I saw).

    Jingozian had rented a table in the convention room, full of literature, buttons, etc. He was the only candidate’s table that I saw—and for all three days of the convention.

    Phillies had no table, but he did host a hospitality suite, open to members on Friday and Saturday nights. His campaign volunteers wandered the halls, inviting people to come in and visit. And I did, on both nights.

    It was cool. Like a college bull session. Munchies and alcohol, and people sitting on the floor talking about this and that. Phillies was greeting everyone, answering questions, etc. He was a nice guy.

  18. David F. Nolan Says:

    Hmmm. I did not attend this year’s LP CA convention, as I now live in Arizona, but I did have the opportunity to meet with both Wayne Root and Steve Kubby in Las Vegas (Henderson, actually) the prior weekend. In my estimation, they are clearly the two leading contenders for the LP nomination, and the straw poll results in CA only confirm that. If someone like Bob Barr enters the race, the situation could change dramatically, but for now Root and Kubby are way out front. Both men have strengths and weaknesses; either would be a more or less credible candidate for the LP.

  19. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    exlp, Phillies (and Jingozian) does believe in global warming. However, to Phillies’s credit, he said that he did not believe in government solutions, but in solutions provided by technology and the market.

    I suppose there may be global warming, but I’m certain it’s not manmade. Nor is there anything we can do about global warming. Not through government, nor technology, nor the market.

    Nor am I certain that global warming is a “crisis.”

    Yes, the earth is going through climate change, but so what? It’s always been going through climate change. Nothing we can do about it.

  20. Nigel Watt Says:

    What is Root’s position on the Federal Reserve?

  21. Itch Says:

    Brian, dude, check out Wes’s video. Gibby the Cat is a tom cat. A male cat. A manly animal. A manimal.

  22. dodsworth Says:

    Please Bob Barr save us. I’d say Gary Johnson but he seems to have no possible interest.

  23. Andy Says:

    “I’m expecting, based on these results, that Root handled himself well in debate. I’ve noted that Root seems to have made some substantial shifts in foreign policy recently. I’m wondering if this is now starting to pay off for him.”

    I’m wondering if these shifts in foreign policy are for real and just how substancial they are.

  24. Brian Holtz Says:

    Thomas, that 73 looked like an 83 from where I was sitting in the cheap seats. I later asked Beau to use a larger font.

    Personally, I would expect CF readers to be more interested in the fact that Bob Barr got votes on three ballots, than that Gibby the Cat got first preference on one ballot. But it’s not like this would be the first time we’ve disagreed about your editorial judgment:
    http://knowinghumans.net/2007/08/cfs-new-antiwar-obsession-still-wont.html
    And I guess I’ll have to add your certainty about the non-existence of anthropogenic global warming to the list of things we disagree on.

    Eric, it’s not even remotely true that the LPCA “usually has conventions of 300 to 400.” The highest we’ve had in the last 10 years was 123.

    And to my groupie from Texas, all I can say is that your time might be better spent creating a shrine at my San Antonio birthplace, rather than following me around Third Party Watch.

  25. Stephen Gordon Says:

    Brian,

    I’m not at all disputing the official numbers, but it sure seemed like there were more than 123 people at the CALP convention in 2004.

    I’d guess there were at least that many people in the late night suite we hosted in San Jose that event. I counted over fifty dead soldiers in my room when I was one of the first to wake up the following morning. Starchild may have the actual pillow count.

  26. Brian Holtz Says:

    I’ve archived LPCA convention minutes at http://marketliberal.org/LPCA/Conventions/. The minutes for 2004 show a peak of 101 credentialed delegates. There are always more people milling around than just the credentialed delegates, but not tons more.

    There were 64 ballots in our straw poll.

  27. Andy Says:

    I heard that a lot of people there voted for Ron Paul on the first ballot. Does anyone have the figures on that?

  28. Robert Milnes Says:

    I checked out the cat video. I don’t get it. It wasn’t hilarious to me. Bordered on animal cruelty to me. Some asshole yelling at cats. If he doesn’t like cats, what are they doing in his house. & is it even his house? We never see the prick. Maybe it’s his parents’ house & he snuck in & nobody is around so he feels free to screw with their cats. To be sure, I wasn’t there. I would’ve said something to the lousy prick-in the least.

  29. Robert Milnes Says:

    mike, pot, kettle black. I note that you don’t deny the kettle is black.

  30. Robert Milnes Says:

    Thomas M. Sipos, you can’t even get the count correct. Why should anyone listen to you? “At this point, I think that candidates who polled less than “Gibby the Cat drop out of the race.” Last CA vote Christine Smith far and away won got more votes. Maybe we should have dropped out then, & concede she will get the nomination by a landslide. Let’s face it, the LP race is a debacle. RP/RP skewed it outrageously. Conventions & meetings never have 100% candidate participation. Root, the supposed frontrunner, clearly is not following the progressive alliance strategy. Williams just got in & you suggest he et al drop out. We all have very little idea how most of the candidates stand. & you are figuring it’s all but over. How long did it take you to realize the Iraq war was not a good idea? How much beachfront property are you investing in, moron?

  31. Eric Dondero Says:

    Thomas, I couldn’t agree with you more. That was brillant. Hadn’t thought of it that way. But you’re 100% correct:

    If Root gets the nomination he’d make it more like that (his old college classmate) Barack Obama would win the general, and if Kubby or Phillies gets it, they’ll be helping McCain.

    This is a tought one for me. I don’t like McCain. But then again, I don’t want to hurt downticket GOP candidates like McClintock for Congress in California.

    Your new perspective on this is going to have to make me re-think this whole scenario.

    As a Libertarian Republican perhaps I should be supporting Kubby or Phillies, instead of “Repulican-leaning” Wayne Root who is much closer to my views?

  32. Eric Dondero Says:

    Brian, perhaps I’m showing my age. But I remember old issues of LP News from the 1980s and ‘90s where the LPC was attracting hundreds to their Conventions. I seem to remember even 800 at one of them.

  33. Eric Dondero Says:

    BTW, Stephen, I will be linking to this article, in fact, headlining it this morning at:

    www.mainstreamlibertarian.com

    Good reporting!

  34. Carl Says:

    Interesting. California certainly had way more than 100 delegates to the national convention in Anaheim in 2000 (my first national convention).

    As for global warming, freedom lovers should jump all over this issue.

    http://www.holisticpolitics.org/GlobalWarming/ConservativeCase.php

    It’s a golden opportunity to either do away with the personal income tax or begin phasing out the biggest entitlement programs.

    Radical politics 101: use whatever the hot issue of the day is to further your agenda. Get in front of every parade. Let the status quo politicians play denial politics.

  35. Red Phillips Says:

    So if Root has changed on foreign policy, where does he stand now? Does he support withdrawal from Iraq?

  36. Steve Kubby Says:

    Root deserved to win. He has reversed his stance on foreign policy, and he spoke well. Unfortunately, I was still sick from the flu and I did not speak well. My head felt like I had half the Pacific Ocean inside. As a result, I had trouble hearing and organizing my thoughts. I also stumbled several times, something I don’t usually do.

    On my way to the convention I met with McCain’s fellow POW cellmate for 5 1/2 years, who told me shocking stories about what really happened. I will be issuing a separate statement about McCain’s REAL war record and why his fellow POWs call him the “Songbird.”

  37. Dodsworth Says:

    Eric:

    Why do you support Root since he has shifted to the antiwar position of the former employer you love to hate?

  38. Itch Says:

    Brian, dude, keep it real, dude, don’t be hiding the facts. Walt Disney, Boomer and Mangela all got more votes than Milnes. Scratch was right, dudes, the lnc got peeps keeping Imperato down. When Scratch took a shine to Milnes, word got back, and now Scratch is dead and Milnes is down.

    Didn’t go to the San Diego throw down cuz it Oscars Weekend and my girl Rumer didn’t go the Vanity Fair party. My peeps on the inside say that it got manly when BigMan Starr, M—that stands for MAN—Carling and Starchild, that should be StarMan, but nothing against gays cuz that’s A ok even if I don’t swing that way, got into the annual brawl with chairs flying, windows got blown out and shit while that bad ass mofo K-fed Takenaga laying down the law. K-fed, kicking ass and taking names. Those are some manly bad ass dudes.
    Cali LP, manly bad ass dudes.

  39. Gene Berkman Says:

    I attended the LPC Convention, but was not registered as a delegate, so I did not vote. But just a couple of factual points:

    (A) Phillies did not explain his tax credit for education clearly, but I think he means that if the child gets the tax credit, it can be used by anyone who pays for that child’s education.

    (B) Steve Kubby was the only one who, when asked about global warming, pointed out that private business is better at dealing with environmental issues than the government is. He gets points for that.

    (C) Kubby spreading rumors about McCain collaborating with the North Vietnamese makes me very uncomfortable. They cannot be confirmed, and they refer to a situation of extreme duress. As Lenny Bruce said about pow’s collaborating during the Korean War, if you are going to criticize them, you better be ready to take the hot lead enema yourself.

    In conclusion, If Not NOTA, when?

  40. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Gene,

    I believe you’re correct vis a vis Phillies’s proposed education tax credit: Anyone can pay for any child’s education, and take the tax credit for doing so. That’s what he meant by the credit being “for the child,” not “for the parent.”

    I discussed the McCain matter with Steve earlier today. Regardless of the truth or falsehood of the McCain POW rumors (and as far as I can tell they’re pure BS), after that discussion he agrees that it’s better to take the high road. Former POWs should not speak ill of each other.

  41. Gene Berkman Says:

    Tom,

    Glad to hear you discussed the McCain matter with Steve Kubby. If he keeps to your agreement, good work!

  42. Brian Holtz Says:

    Gene, all of Kubby’s examples involved market-based responses to large-scale aggressors with a single return address—e.g. corporations that sell tuna caught by killing dolphins. When I’ve asked him about air and water pollution problems that have no obvious return address, his answer has been pretty muddled. The best answer he’s been able to come up with is that guys who drive polluting SUVs won’t get laid, because Priuses will be more chic. Meanwhile, my view of Silicon Valley is blocked by smog every weekday morning.

    Geoanarchist economist Fred Foldvary has a much better answer:
    http://knowinghumans.net/2008/01/tax-bads-and-untax-goods-with-green-tax.html

    I just don’t agree with Steve that it’s optimally libertarian to give a green light (so to speak) to all aggression where the damage it causes is less than the cost to the victim of targeting, contesting, winning, and enforcing a tort claim against the aggressor. He calls pollution taxes “the fox guarding the chicken coop”, but his alternative is to declare open season on chickens.

    The idea that we should abolish state law enforcement because cops aren’t perfect is a great for establishing one’s radical credentials at the faculty club, but it’s not very serious public policy. Kudos to George Phillies for standing up to global warming deniers and to Kubby’s idea of effectively defaulting on the federal debt. Kubby claimed the idea of suspending payment of interest on the federal debt is supported by Reagan administration economist Joe Cobb, but I don’t see that idea mentioned on Cobb’s blog. I doubt Cobb would endorse that idea. I’m cc’ing this to him to see.

  43. Michael Seebeck Says:

    Glad to see someone pointed out the Walt Disney vote. That was me, because the whole process was a MickeyMouse operation, debating for 30 minutes over a straw poll that was non-binding and whose only impact was an invitation to a rally in Sacramento on April 11. I’m also glad that we only go through that very 4 years. The IRV things was to decide a winner for that invite and nothing else. The raw numbers were the actual vote, not counting those not listed.

    BTW, I didn’t see the debate. I saw them last year and was unimpressed. This year I went to Wendy’s with the wife and kid and then took a drive over to Coronado and back to look around San Diego while it was imitating Seattle before the sun finally came out.

  44. Michael Seebeck Says:

    Itch, I was there as a presenter. WTF are you talking about, and in what langauge?

  45. Michael Seebeck Says:

    Itch, I was there as a presenter. WTF are you talking about in that second paragraph, and in what language? You sound like David Lee Roth talking to Tommy Chong and Snoop Dogg.

    And if you weren’t there, who toldd you about my Disney vote?

  46. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Milnes to me: “How long did it take you to realize the Iraq war was not a good idea? How much beachfront property are you investing in, moron?”

    I marched against the Iraq war before the war started.

    But you are indeed a true “progressive.” Like much of the true left, you’re quick with the personal attacks the instant you imagine someone is on the other side.

    Sorry that “Gibby the cat” trounced you in the polling.

  47. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Brian,

    Have you found a candidate with answers on environmental issues that are better than Kubby’s answers?

    George Phillies’s policy proposals mirror Kubby’s, only with less specificity and a lack of historical perspective:

    - George says it’s time for the federal government to make a start on moving to renewable energy; Kubby points out that it did so in 1992 and proposes moving faster and farther.
    - George’s position paper maintains that biofuels aren’t viable as jet fuel—Virgin Airlines just proved him wrong.

    Neither George nor Steve include a carbon tax or “cap and trade” scheme in their position papers, and I’m not at all surprised by that. Kubby isn’t inclined to support new taxes, period, and George is already way out on a limb with Libertarians with his protective tariff proposal and his proposal to use tax policy for social engineering purposes vis a vis education.

    Jingozian’s site doesn’t seem to have much in the way of actual policy proposals—it’s all PDF flowcharts and diagrams of non-specific complaints. His response to VoteSmart’s Political Courage Test, however, indicates that he supports “cap and trade.”

    I’m more sympathetic to the geolibertarian position than most LP members, but I can see why no presidential candidate wants to be the one out front supporting Fred Foldvary’s “green tax shift.” LPers are, of course, tax-averse in any case, and if you were at the 2004 national convention, you witnessed a brief local reversal of global warming—the room physically chilled when Aaron Russo suggested that handing ANWR over to Exxon as taxpayer-subsidized corporate welfare wasn’t the answer to all of America’s energy problems.

    For the LP to address pollution in the way that you advocate would require a radical re-thinking of a number of issues … and on environmental issues, the LP (especially its radical faction) is a reactionary party.

    Incrementalist that I am, I’ve been enormously pleased over the last couple of years to see LP presidential candidates and even a member of the LNC (Dan Karlan) acknowledge global warming. Expecting an even longer leap in one election cycle—LP presidential candidates proposing a drastic revision of existing LP dogma on taxation, property in land/resources, etc.—is probably expecting far too much.

    [Note: I had to cut some links in order to get this comment to post; if anyone’s interested in a link to Phillies’s tariff proposal or social engineering tax credit, or to Jingozian’s campaign site, let me know]

  48. Eric Dondero Says:

    Dodsworth, has Root denounced the US Military and called for an immediate pull-out of Iraq? If he has then I’ll have to withdraw my support for him. But as far as I have seen, he’s a diehard Centrist on the issue; Not a rabid Anti-War Pacifist Freakoid who calls our Troops “Nazis” like some here, nor is he a balls-to-the-wall fight the whole Middle East conservative, like some people I know of on the Right (LT Nixon rants, Hugh Hewitt, Robert Spencer, Michael Savage, Debbie Schlussell, Little Green Footballs crowd, et.al.)

    He’s in the sensible middle. Obviously, I lean towards the LGF/Michael Savage, Spencer, Schlussell, side. But I’m also pragmatic, and understand that it wouldn’t be best for Root to take that balls-to-the-wall approach.

  49. Eric Dondero Says:

    Steve Kubby,

    That was very gentlemanly of you to say about Root deserving to win. My respect for you has just gone up a couple notches.

    Illness is not something that can be ignored. I hold to a theory, that one of the biggest reasons Rudy Giuliani lost the primary, was at a very critical time in the primary races, early December, he took ill with the flu. He looked and sounded awful.

    Worse thing for any candidate, is when illness strikes at precisely the wrong time.

    I heard rumors, but never confirmed that Gary Nolan had a horrible flu at the 2004 LP Nominating Convention and spent most of his time in his hotel room.

    Illness can cause people to lose elections. Not a nice thing, but reality.

  50. Eric Dondero Says:

    Steve, I humbly invite you on as a guest for “Libertarian Politics Live”. Let me know if it fits your schedule. We usually tape on Friday nights, but can be somewhat flexible over the weekends.

  51. Eric Dondero Says:

    Dodsworth, Ron Paul blamed the United States of America for the attacks of 9/11 in that Fox debate back in May of last year. He was offered a chance to retract and clarify his statement by Wendell Goler. He didn’t take the opportunity, but rather chose to use his time to talk about conspiracy theories.

    If Wayne Root ever blamed the United States for the attacks of 9/11, despite my past support for him, I’d come after him with every single weapon in my arsenal. I’d attack him viciously.

    I cannot fathom Root EVER blaming the US for 9/11.

    Can you?

  52. Nigel Watt Says:

    Eric, please quote to me where Ron Paul blamed America for 9/11.

  53. Eric Dondero Says:

    It was in May. Don’t remember the exact date. Could have been April? The first GOP Fox debate. I’m sure you could Google it.

    It wasn’t his first comment that was so bad, as many said. What was worse was he was given the opportunity to clarify his remarks and to say that he was “not blaming America for the attacks of 9/11.” Instead, he took the opportunity to talk about the Saudis, “blowback” and other side issues.

  54. Eric Dondero Says:

    You all really need to see this:

    www.libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com

    Wayne Root surrounded by Hooter Girls.

    Somehow I don’t think George Phillies or Steve Kubby could win such a reception?

  55. Trent Hill Says:

    You’re right Eric. Hooter’s girls = serious candidate.

  56. Itch Says:

    Mike S, dude, follow Brian’s links to the votes. Brian, dude, what did I tell ya about all that linking? A bit geeky, a little freaky. Not down with that.

    My peeps text from the San Diego with the scoop, dude. No need to be covering for your boys in Cali lp. No shame in that game.

    You up on the lnc shemale scandal? I got nothing against shemales but they need to represent.

    Wayne Root, hanging with the Hooters babes. That’s manly. I respect that.

  57. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    February 25th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
    Dodsworth, Ron Paul blamed the United States of America for the attacks of 9/11 in that Fox debate back in May of last year. He was offered a chance to retract and clarify his statement by Wendell Goler. He didn’t take the opportunity, but rather chose to use his time to talk about conspiracy theories.

    If Wayne Root ever blamed the United States for the attacks of 9/11, despite my past support for him, I’d come after him with every single weapon in my arsenal. I’d attack him viciously.

    I cannot fathom Root EVER blaming the US for 9/11.

    Can you?”

    I don’t blame the entire United States of America for the 9/11 attack, just a few key officials in the government of the USA and/or connected with the government of the USA.

  58. Aaron Starr Says:

    “My peeps on the inside say that it got manly when BigMan Starr, M—that stands for MAN—Carling and Starchild, that should be StarMan, but nothing against gays cuz that’s A ok even if I don’t swing that way, got into the annual brawl with chairs flying, windows got blown out and shit while that bad ass mofo K-fed Takenaga laying down the law. K-fed, kicking ass and taking names. Those are some manly bad ass dudes.
    Cali LP, manly bad ass dudes.”

    Response to Itch:

    “BigMan Starr”? Such a feeble and pathetic attempt to undermine me. It’s obvious I am much more than a man. Read about me on the web (where all truth can be found) and you’ll find that I control all. Everything that happens is part of my master plan.

    I am God … you should respect that.

  59. Robert Milnes Says:

    Thomas M. Sipos, ok, you answered the first question. And I see that I did jump to an incorrect conclusion & a personal attack. Sorry. You can answer the second question, if you please. “But you are indeed a true “progressive”. Like much of the true left, you’re quick with the personal attacks the instant you imagine someone is on the other side.” I’ll have you know I’ve been at this trying to herd left & right cats since before 2004. Just ask Tom K. Being a progressive has its advantages & disadvantages. An advantage is the possibility of winning-which I can’t seem to convince anyone. Even the example of Teddy Roosevelt has not impressed & I’m no Teddy Roosevelt. A disadvantage is a progressive stand seems to catch it from BOTH sides. & you are atypical in being ahead of the libertarian curve re: Iraq war, & behind the curve re: global warming. So I hope you can see my hasty conclusions & frustrations have reasons.

  60. Robert Milnes Says:

    Thomas L. Knapp, man, you are good! With a slight of hand on keyboard & one spin cycle you changed you candidate’s bonehead statement about McCain into comrades as former POWs. Aren’t you getting tired of correcting your candidate’s mistakes?

  61. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, have you given up on RP/RP dinosaur fossil yet? Are you ready to try your theoretical “upper left” party yet? You have my address.

  62. Itch Says:

    BigMan, dude, nice dodge but answer the question. Why you covering for your lnc shemales? Why did you kill Scratch when he got a little freaky deaky? You poisoned some crazy old ghey boofer to bump Imperato off of Liberghey DeLies. Dude, can’t you just make some bylaw or some shit,
    God sez bylaw 23.42.16 No Imperatos. Dude, you killed a crazy ghey boofer. You got mind controlled shemales poisoning candidates. you got . Brian, a dude with a penis, so freaked he can’t talk about a manimal. If Scratch were here, he’d get all weepy creepy on the shape shifting cat. That’s some fucked up shit.

    Tom Knapp, you a bald headed Marine dude, break this shit open.

  63. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Robert Milnes, you want to know if I own beachfront property? If that’s a serious question, I don’t understand its import.

    No, I don’t own beachfront property. Such property is expensive, and I can’t afford it.

    I wish I owned a house, and near the beach (or some other nice locale) would be nice. But I do not.

  64. Brian Holtz Says:

    Thomas, his snarky question is about rising sea levels due to global warming. You should point out to him that prices of beachfront property reveal the market’s judgment that that there is vanishingly little chance of a bigger rise than the 1 or 2 feet projected over the next century.

    Michael, I disagree about the utility of the straw poll. It gives us a much clearer picture than Super Tuesday of who our nominee is likely to be.

  65. Robert Milnes Says:

    Brian Holtz, 1 or 2 feet next century? That’s not what I heard. Where did you get that projection?

  66. Thomas M. Sipos Says:

    Walt Disney, Boomer and Mangela each got one vote?

    I don’t remember that. Is that true?

  67. Eric Dondero Says:

    And Andy, when you do blame the “certain officials in the US Government” you are blaming the United States of America, the country of your birth, for the attacks of 9/11.

    George W. Bush is YOUR President too. And it you honestly don’t like that fact, you would’ve grown some cajones, and moved to Canada or France.

    But like a true Liber-weenie, you stuck around.

  68. Eric Dondero Says:

    Any less credible for Root to be photoed with Hooter Girls, than Steve Kubby appearing on the front page of High Times?

    I’d venture to say, most of the American public would be more accepting of the Libertarian candidate being surrounded by youthful women in tight gear, rather than a guy perceived as Pro-Drugs.

    And I say this as a Marijuana legalization advocate.

  69. Carl Says:

    Robert: I got off the RP bandwagon when the newsletters came out and the Paul campaign failed to distance itself from racists adequately. My public statement here:
    http://www.freeliberal.com/blog/archives/003171.php

  70. Dave Williams Says:

    Roots about to drop da bomb…hOOter chix…Go WAR

  71. Brian Holtz Says:

    Robert Milnes: sea level in the 21st century is projected to rise 7 to 23 inches. That data comes from by far the most authoritative source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change. Don’t believe everything that Al Gore’s movie tells you.

    Tom Sipos: Boomer and Disney are in the spreadsheet of candidates mentioned on ballots, but Mangela isn’t. Hence my question about you covering Gibby the Cat but not Bob Barr in the California Freedom article on the straw poll.

  72. Carl Says:

    Regarding Al Gore, maybe my mind blinked when I watched “An Inconvenient Truth” but I did not hear Gore predict that seas would rise 20 feet in the next century. He did say if Greenland melts or if [a certain] Antarctic ice sheet, then we’d get such sea level rises.

    Gore was rather careful in his language. While he does get the watcher to think about such catastrophic scenarios he makes no definite prediction.

    What he does do is point out the level of uncertainty and the amount of nonlinearity involved. He makes the case that it’s not y sea level rise per x degree of warming. Instead, you could get nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, BOOM 20 feet rise.

    He has a point. Phase changes are very nonlinear. Melting ice is a phase change.

    In other words, action needs to be taken well before the effects are truly noticeable.

    That said, “before” could mean within 150 years or it could mean in the next 30. And “action” could mean natural market actions in response to growing fossil fuel prices, or it could mean some stronger such as a steep carbon tax.

  73. Chris Moore Says:

    You should point out to him that prices of beachfront property reveal the market’s judgment that that there is vanishingly little chance of a bigger rise than the 1 or 2 feet projected over the next century.

    You need to be a little careful here. The market for beachfront property is heavily affected by government flood and hurricane insurance (rich-people welfare). Make property owners buy insurance at actual market prices and it would get really hard to sell oceanfront property at current prices.

    Increases in hurricane activity via some global climate change would obviously contribute to free market insurance prices, though they affect subsidized insurance almost nil. So we really can gather very little about what the market thinks from current oceanfront real estate prices.

  74. Fred C. Says:

    “when you do blame the “certain officials in the US Government” you are blaming the United States of America, the country of your birth, for the attacks of 9/11.”

    So I guess there’s no point in any of us being interested in politics, since claiming any elected or appointed official can make a mistake or have less than honorable intentions is an attack on our own country. I look forward to Dondero rushing to the aid of radical muslim president Barack Obama when he challenges the unAmerican obstacles to building a stable, democratic Greater Albania.

  75. Robert Milnes Says:

    Brian Holtz, & what did the IPCC say would be the consequences of such a rise in water levels?

  76. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, congratulations. You said in the article comments you are interested in building an upper left coalition. So am I. “Two heads are better than one.” !?

  77. Robert Milnes Says:

    Fred C., if Albania federates or annexes or conquers Kosovo, then a Greater Albania would come at the cost of Greater Serbia. No wonder Serbs are trashing the U.S. Embassy.

  78. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, I would suggest we start with forming the Progressive Alliance coordinating committee & website. Also your suggestion of shadow cabinet. (consisting of 50% libs & greens?). Also, you could help my campaign!

  79. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, where would you want to be in such a shadow cabinet?

  80. Robert Milnes Says:

    Fred C., Brian Holtz, Chris Moore, Thomas M. Sipos, Thomas L. Knapp, Itch, any interest in a position in a shadow cabinet?

  81. Brian Holtz Says:

    Carl: yes, I was already noting the danger to the West Antarctic ice sheet a couple years ago, and I’m pretty sure that the IPCC scientists know about it—and about the concept of phase changes. (I was also writing about the other top warming danger, to the Gulf Stream thermohaline circulation, but studies since then have concluded it’s not threatened.)

    Chris, flood insurance doesn’t cover property that is permanently submerged under the ocean. My understanding is that the alarms about warming-induced increases in Hurricane dangers are anecdotal; I’ve yet to see them backed by hard science. My parents’ home was submerged by 5 feet of storm surge during Katrina, so this topic isn’t merely hypothetical to me.

    Robert, I would need to first know how much of #1 below you agree with, and how much of #2 you disagree with. If the answer to both is “all”, then we can talk. :-)

    1. http://ecolibertarian.org/manifesto
    2. http://libertarianmajority.net/no-1st-force-pledge

  82. Carl Says:

    Robert, to put it bluntly, I do not endorse your candidacy and wish you would stop. Your campaign gives the upper-left idea a bad name.

    Get your own life together, and then run for an office for which you are qualified. And learn how to do paragraph breaks.

  83. Carl Says:

    Brian: I was not saying the IPCC was unaware of such things, only noting that I saw no definite prediction from Al Gore. He hedged well.

    Regarding Katrina, my intuition tells me that any global warming connection is bunk. Hurricanes are driven by temperature differences. If CO2 warms the polar areas, I would think that would reduce the severity of hurricanes. The air over warm oceans is least affected by CO2 since water vapor is overwhelmingly predominant in such areas. CO2 makes as significant difference over the poles because absolute humidity is so low where it is cold.

  84. Robert Milnes Says:

    Brian Holtz, sorry. I have no significant objection to the first, but the second-no-first-force pledge-, which I note you authored but did not take, is too complicated & not pragmatic.

  85. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, “Your campaign gives the upper-left idea a bad name.” What? This is news to me. How is that so?

  86. Andy Says:

    “Eric Dondero Says:

    February 26th, 2008 at 5:37 am
    And Andy, when you do blame the ‘certain officials in the US Government’ you are blaming the United States of America, the country of your birth, for the attacks of 9/11.”

    You are making the false assumption that the “certain government officials” who I blame for the 9/11 false flag terror operation in some way represent me or represent most Americans and that I’m somehow bound to support them just because I was born on this land mass.

    “George W. Bush is YOUR President too. And it you honestly don’t like that fact, you would’ve grown some cajones, and moved to Canada or France.”

    George W. Bush may be the President, but this does not mean that he represents me or that I’m required to support him.

    I may decide to move out of this country at some point but right now I’m still working to change things here in the direction of more freedom and less government. I think that there is still a chance to turn things around if enough people can be woken up and get active before it becomes too late.

    You seem to confuse blind obedience to government as patriotism, but I call that stupidity. I’m a patriot for LIBERTY, not a mindless government bootlicker.

    “But like a true Liber-weenie, you stuck around.”

    I’m sticking around right now because I want a 2nd American Revolution. If the USA is completely absobed into the New World Order the rest of the world will likely be fucked as well so it would just be a matter of time before there is no place left to hide. The American Freedom Movement may be our last hope.

  87. Thomas L. Knapp Says:

    Carl,

    You write:

    “Hurricanes are driven by temperature differences. If CO2 warms the polar areas, I would think that would reduce the severity of hurricanes. The air over warm oceans is least affected by CO2 since water vapor is overwhelmingly predominant in such areas.”

    The problem with that is that warming in polar areas may very well COOL the oceans. More warming in the polar areas means more icebergs calving off of those polar areas and into the surrounding oceans. Instead of the limited water cooling effect from one big ice cube like Antarctica, you get a lot of smaller chunks of ice with more surfaces exposed to the water and exchanging heat with it (of course, that in turn could reduce the overall warming as colder water evaporates less greenhouse-effect-causing vapor into the air …)

    I’ve seen several recent articles by libertarians pooh-poohing the “Antarctica is warming” data on the basis that “the latest data shows that there’s more ice in the ocean around Antarctica than ever.” Uh … that ice is coming from somewhere, dumbasses. It’s coming off of the warming continental mass.

  88. Itch Says:

    Milnes, dude, they got Scratch, the Renfro and Buckley. They got Buckley. Dude, Knappster, Brian, Tom S are down with the shemales. Watch your lunch. Carl, dude, is freaky deaky but he ain’t down with all the shape shifting shit.

    Manimals, Milnes, they are manimals.

  89. Robert Milnes Says:

    Carl, I’m sorry I’m no Teddy Roosevelt & am not worthy of your upper left party theory. We’ve discussed this before. I preferred comparison to Sparticus. If you start a new party it would be in direct competition with the greens & Libs. So why bother? I suggested you run & you declined. I’ve pointed out the shortcomings of Bob Barr. We are stuck with me. Sorry. PS. I agree with Thomas. You siding with the anti-global warming ice cubes is most unbecoming.

  90. Robert Milnes Says:

    correction: Spartacus.

  91. ohdear Says:

    Thomas Knapp said: “I’ve seen several recent articles by libertarians pooh-poohing the “Antarctica is warming” data on the basis that “the latest data shows that there’s more ice in the ocean around Antarctica than ever.” Uh … that ice is coming from somewhere, dumbasses. It’s coming off of the warming continental mass.”

    Off topic but crying out for a reply because that is really one of the dumbest statements I’ve seen in a very long time. The ice in the waters around the poles come from freezing water around the poles. Every summer the ice starts to melt, every winter it expands. Due to colder winters the expansion has been bigger than usual. Last year in particular was much colder. To assume that the ice is coming off a warming continental mass is unfounded. It is coming because the winter freezes water into ice. I think it works that way in your part of the country as well.

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